Anna Richards · Rugby Coach
Anna Richards is renowned as one of the greatest female rugby union players to ever play the game: she played 49 international tests and won four World Cup titles with the Black Ferns. She had a playing career that lasted twenty years, and she was one of the first women to be inducted into the World Rugby Hall of Fame. And while she can, no doubt, recount many compelling, and oftentimes hilarious, adventures as a player, I have always been particularly interested in her experiences as a developing high performance coach and her response to the inclusion of her sport into the Olympic Games. Indeed, it was along these lines that The High Performance Sport Guild was originally inspired. Anna generously gave her time to discuss, at length, a range of interesting topics, including the admission of rugby sevens into the Olympics, and in particular the impact of this for women; the evolution of her own coaching career; the particular considerations for female athletes; her experiences coaching athletes from diverse cultural backgrounds; as well as the official recognition she received at a broader, national level in New Zealand and it’s significance. Please enjoy this fascinating discussion.
Rugby Sevens & The Olympics
The inclusion of rugby sevens into the Olympic Games was announced back in 2009, before you had retired from your playing career; in your mind, what did its inclusion into the biggest and most prestigious sporting event in the world mean for your sport, for rugby?
I think it gave it a legitimacy. And that it could be seen as a global sport. I know rugby had been searching to get into the Olympics, but obviously you need to have women and men playing for the sport to have a chance. And so, selfishly for me, them wanting to try and get into the Olympics meant that the sevens was reinstituted for women back in New Zealand, ‘cause for a while they just closed that part of rugby down for girls. I was in the first New Zealand sevens team, official team, back in 2000-2001, and then in 2002, they just stopped it. No national provincial competition, no national team, and that was the case all the way through until World Rugby told all the unions around the world that they needed to have a women’s sevens team. 2009 was the first time that women ever went to the World Cup – and that was in Dubai – it was a huge thing for us in New Zealand and around the world. What went really well there [in Dubai] was that little known countries [in the sport of rugby] actually had the chance to win. At that World Cup, in the men’s side, probably the top four countries lost in the quarterfinals: Fiji, New Zealand, Australia and I can't remember who else, but it was just this shock after shock after shock. And then Australia won the girls. So, it was kind of cool, and then that success from there allowed World Rugby to petition to get into the Olympics for 2016.
Then that, in New Zealand, gave way to contracts for girls in sevens – there had never been contracts for a woman, ever. Same in Australia. And then that went through and became full time programmes that were fully contracted. All of a sudden you had a pathway and a viable option for very talented young athletes to go, ‘I want to go to the Olympics and play rugby.’ Or, ‘I want to make this what I do for my job.’ Whereas previously, and it's [also] the case in Australia, you have kids at school who are super-talented and they play lots of different sports, and in New Zealand, most of them gravitated towards netball, because there was money and contracts and that, or hockey, because it went to the Olympics. All right, so if you wanted to play a team sport, those were the two, and rugby was this very poor third cousin… twice removed and not even adopted. So, it gave a pathway, and all of a sudden, these kids who were never choosing rugby, were choosing rugby now as the sport that they would go ahead with post-school. It’s very cool.
So then what did it mean to you personally for rugby sevens to have a place at the Olympics? You were still a player at the time...
Just!! Clinging on by my fingernails!
Haha! You were coming towards the end of your playing career; how did you feel about likely missing out on playing at the Olympics?
Aw mate, I would have loved it. Like, I wasn't jealous, I was just like, ‘God, I wish!’ But then again, I thought about it and I was like, well, you know, I don't want to change when I played, because it was so cool. I was at the inception of New Zealand Rugby and the New Zealand national team and that was a cool time. It would have been cool to go to the Olympics, because, I suppose, I think in everybody’s eye, that is the pinnacle sporting event in the world. So, I was clinging on by my fingernails and I was playing a little bit of sevens, but honestly, there was no real option of me getting into the team, so it didn't really hurt that much. I was gone. I stopped playing in 2010 [at the age of 45]. So, I was happy for it to happen, but I think It made it easy, because it was never an option.
Indeed, the fifteens competition had been included on four occasions previously, albeit for men only, and the last time it made an appearance was 1924. 2016 was the first time that women had the opportunity to play rugby at the Olympics – how much of a big deal is that?
I think it's big because, with the World Series being the lead-in to the Olympics and being part of the Olympic cycle, it's made the women who play in New Zealand sevens team a household name. And there's a lot more media coverage. You know, usually there's a rule that of all the sporting coverage in a newspaper or whatever, maybe 5% is devoted to women's sports as a whole. And even though rugby is a national sport, in New Zealand, coverage of women's rugby is poor, as well. So, having the girls play like they have been playing – they play a very attractive brand, they win and they look good doing it, and they're actually very good ambassadors – they've become household names. And people, when I talk about sevens, they talk about them as much as the boys now.
I think now, from what I understand, the women’s sevens contracts have parity with the boys sevens contracts. There's no difference. And the girls possibly would have had more success than the boys, as well – it was good to see the girls got a silver medal in those first Olympics and they got a gold in the last ones. The boys got a silver in the last Olympics. So, it's good for funding, because it's a big program and they get, obviously, government funding if they go well at the Olympics. [But] there's no contracting [with clubs, for women]; there's no money anywhere else. There are around 22 sevens contracts [with the NZ national women’s sevens team, the Black Ferns Sevens] and they’re full-time and they’re centrally based in Tauranga, down in the Bay of Plenty. They train alongside the boys down there and they've got a really good setup. Then the Black Ferns [the NZ national women’s fifteens team] have between 30 and 35 contracts, which are semi-professional. Depending on what sort of contract they get, their base contract can be anywhere between NZ$20,000 and NZ$55,000, and then on top of that, they'll get assembly fees. So, if they assemble for everything and if they’re on the top wage, they might be getting close to NZ$80-90,000 a year, which is something you can live on. And there's talk that they could be going full time next year, the Black Ferns. So, all of a sudden, you've got close to 55-60 contracts up for women, full time.
I think the Olympics really helped, and the lead-in to the Olympics and how well we did in the World Series really helped. And then the next year, in 2017, was the women's World Cup in Ireland. In the final, the Black Ferns won against England, and it was a very, very good final. And about that same time… and I remember talking to one of the top guys in NZRU [New Zealand Rugby Union] over there and saying, ‘Do you think the girls will ever get contracted, the fifteens girls?’ And he said, ‘Oh no.’ …but then it was such a really good game. And then that year, Jacinda [Ardern] got voted in as our prime minister, and then about the same time, that was when that #MeToo movement started. And so there was this big thing, all of a sudden this movement going, ‘The girls are doing really well. We need to support the girls.’ And straightaway after that 2017 World Cup, they offered contracts to the fifteens. And that could have been close to when the NZRPA [New Zealand Rugby Players Association] were pushing for parity for the girls in the sevens contracts… So there was this real groundswell of, ‘These players are great. Let’s support them. Let’s get them contracts.’ It was kind of like a perfect storm, I think.
“I think the Olympics really helped, and the lead-in to the Olympics and how well we did in the World Series really helped. And then... Jacinda [Ardern] got voted in as our prime minister, and then about the same time, that was when that #MeToo movement started. And so there was this big thing, all of a sudden this movement going... there was this real groundswell of, ‘These players are great. Let’s support them. Let’s get them contracts.’ It was kind of like a perfect storm, I think.”
You came to Hong Kong in 2014 to coach the Hong Kong women's rugby sevens team, presumably with an aim to qualify them for the 2016 Olympic Games in Rio de Janeiro. What did the Anna of 2014 think that it was going to take to win the Olympic gold medal in 2016? Was she right?
I came to Hong Kong a very green coach. I didn’t know what I was stepping into; I'd never been in a full-time environment. I was freaking out. And I think I wasn't even looking at the Olympics when I came – my big focus that first year was the Asian Games.So, rather than going, ‘My only focus is on the Olympics.’ Hell no it wasn't, it was one, bloody keeping my head above water to start with, learning as much as I could, and then trying to ride that, you know, right into the Asian Games with what I thought was a good plan. I'm pretty sure I got better by the end of it, four years later.
I think that you need consistency. And that might be a consistency of personnel; that's not all, but a real good core group. You need great planning. It’s a four-year cycle [Asian Games and/or Olympic Games, and] you need really, really good planning, especially in that last year, last year-and-a-half leading into it. I think you need harmony within the group and happiness, because if you don't have that, it doesn't matter how good they are, they're not going to perform. I think you need x-factor. You don't necessarily need x-factor from everyone, but you need some x-factor. And I think you need luck. The luck is usually about injuries, especially in a contact sport. Sometimes it might be about the weather – sometimes you’ve got athletes that don't like playing in the rain, don't like playing in the wind. So, you just need a little bit of luck. And with sevens, it's such a short game – seven minutes each way, if you make a mistake, you're gone, and it's very hard to recover.
I don't know if you remember the Olympic Games [in 2016], but New Zealand leading into the Olympics were playing phenomenally, they played really well. I don't think they were a happy group, though, which I think impacted a little bit on them. And then they hit the final and they had an off-day. And straightaway, 14 minutes goes just like that and it’s hard to get back. This last Olympic Games, again they were unbeaten for a long time, playing great rugby. Covid kind of interfered, but it impacted on everybody. They went to the Olympics: they had injuries to some key players, and you could tell they were struggling a bit. They had one off-game against Great Britain and they honest-to-God nearly lost. I think they scored after the whistle or just before the final whistle. And so, you just need a little bit of luck, but they were a very happy group. Sometimes you can't tick all the boxes, but you’ve got to try and tick the majority.
Australia won in 2016; do you think they had most of those boxes ticked then? And those characteristics you spoke of – the luck, the x-factor, they were strong going in and all of that?
They definitely had x-factor. I think they did well with non-injuries, whereas this time, they had a few injuries leading into the Olympics. They lost Chloe Dalton, who I think would have been influential. Ellia Green was coming back from a big injury and didn't get selected – she's phenomenal. So, there's a few things that really impact. Were they a happy group? I don't know… So, it might have been a little bit of a reversal with the New Zealand team.
So the New Zealand women who won in Tokyo were probably a bit happier, then? They didn’t have so many injuries?
Funnily enough, they did have a couple of injuries this time. So that was quite interesting, but they seemed to be able to ride it out. I think there were injuries to Michaela Blyde and Kelly Brazier, who are both influential players, but they were still able to play some part during the games, so I think they weren’t lost totally.
And I think what they did from that last Olympic Games [2016] was they had a change of coach, and the new coach, Allan Bunting, came in and he put a lot of importance on team culture, how they held themselves [and] what they stood for. He started doing a lot of empowering of his players. So, in 2016, you would have seen the coach [doing] a lot of talk at half time, [giving] a lot of direction – he was the ‘chatter.’ And then when Allan Bunting came over, he empowered his players; at half-time, he was never in the circle, the players ran it all. They were making the decisions on the field and they were empowered. They felt like they had a voice and they had some control. He never really took part, he just sat on the periphery and listened.
I think too what [Bunting] did was that… A lot of his players were either Pacifica or Māori, and he holds a lot of mana* – he's a Māori guy. And a lot of their culture and their playing systems were based on Māori words and stuff like that. That resonated through, not only off the field, but on the field, what they stood for, and their culture.
*According to National Geographic, ‘mana’ is a Māori word that translates as ‘a combination of presence, charisma, prestige, honour and spiritual power.’ Also see this explanation from New Zealand Geographic.
New Zealander’s are famous for that, aren’t they? I listened to the audiobook of Legacy, by James Kerr, the book about the All Blacks’ culture, and it's something you guys get. You seem to do it really well.
I think one thing most teams do here is it's about acknowledging the history of the jersey or the history of your team, and understanding it and understanding what's happened before, and that you're only a caretaker of the jersey and you’ve got to leave it in a better place. So, it's not yours for life. It’s yours for a little while, so enjoy it, but take really good care of it.
If you watch when the Kiwis are at the Olympics, they make a really big thing of you being part of a bigger thing. So, you're part of the country, and you know, just some of the ways they celebrate what they do over there – successes and failures, you’ve got to celebrate it all. And they give them a pounamu*, which is a greenstone, when they arrive. It's about being part of New Zealand, as well, and representing New Zealand, because that's what it's about, isn’t it? I think we’re really lucky.
And we need to remember now that it's not just our Māori culture, but we've got a lot of other cultures that are predominant in New Zealand – Auckland's the biggest Pacific Island city in the world. When I was playing in the Black Ferns, we had a lot of Tongans, we had a lot of Samoans, Fijians, so we needed to acknowledge all that. We always made sure that we, you know, we acknowledged them – we had Fijian songs, Samoan songs. With our Storm this year, you know, on the bottom of your playing jersey, on the inner side, we had ‘Storm Family’ - the Auckland women's team’s name is Storm – so we had ‘Storm Family’ in all the different languages in our team.
*According to newzealand.com, a ‘pounamu’ is a talisman that ‘can represent ancestors, connection with the natural world, or attributes such as strength, prosperity, love, and harmony.’
“I think one thing most teams do here is it’s about acknowledging the history of the jersey or the history of your team, and understanding it and understanding what’s happened before, and that you’re only a caretaker of the jersey and you’ve got to leave it in a better place. So, it’s not yours for life. It’s yours for a little while, so enjoy it, but take really good care of it.”
Maybe it is a team thing – my background is more in individual sports and, apart from the instances of proper teams at the very top, say, of cycling, I'm not sure that I see the same sort of culture and commitment to, or even acknowledgement of, something greater in individual sports. But I think it's really cool. And I think, then, that it makes, like you said, you celebrate success and failures, and kind of makes the success more beautiful and maybe makes the failure more of a… it's not a catastrophe… and it's not that it's not important and that you don't learn from your mistakes or failures, but this acknowledgement of something greater than you playing the sport, or greater than the sport itself, makes the outcome of a failure almost more gentle, or more valuable. It's not seen as such a negative thing.
Yeah, I think it's really important to celebrate failure, because to even get yourself into a position to fail, there's a lot of hard work. It is a lot of hard work that people don't see, a lot of good times, a lot of bad times, but to even get yourself into a position to fail, you've done amazing. And if you go to the Olympics, it might be what? One hundred or however many people in your sport, 99.9% of them are going to fail, because only one, or one team, or one person wins the gold, but you’ve got to celebrate it! You learn more from your failures than your wins. I think you need to recognize that there’s very few people ever get to the Olympics. Very few people get to the Asian Games. Very few people get to a World Cup. So, you are less than 1% of the population. So, you're a bloody marvel.
Anna (Right) with Donna Kennedy - a Scottish legend, in the words of Anna - when they coached the women’s Barbarians side against England in 2019. (Photo courtesy of Anna Richards)
Anna as a Rugby Coach
Your entry into the sport of rugby has been documented on a number of occasions previously; specifically, how did your rugby coaching career begin? What was the transition like from playing to coaching?
I actually got into coaching because I ruptured my ACL, playing in Italy – I was over there playing a bit of club. I had a reconstruction [and] couldn't play their club season. My [youngest] sister [Fiona, also a former All Blacks player] had ruptured her ACL, maybe three months or two months before me, so we were both [injured together] and we coached our club side. So, there we were. And it's very hard to get really good coaches at a club level, especially women's rugby, and we were still looking for coaches. So, Fiona and I, in 1999, started coaching our club side, and I coached them for 13 years. I kept on coaching them and being a player-coach. Then, because it's hard getting any management, Fiona and I were also the manager and physio – she knew how to strap a few things [and] I knew how to strap other stuff, mostly because of what we'd injured. Gosh, we used to coach two teams back then, too, the top side and the second side. We were managers and everything for them. That’s how it started.
How did your teammates feel about you being a coach and a player, one of their teammates? Did it cause any kind of conflict?
I'm hoping they were kind of grateful just because somebody wanted to step in and coach. I think more than anything else, you just got on with it. I can't say I was the best coach back then, and it’s tough being a player coach. And on and off, we got guys coming in to help out, as well. It was really cool.
Wow – what a special thing to be able to do that with your family! What were the strengths that your sister brought?
I was lucky. And Fiona was in the Black Ferns with me – it's great playing with your sister on the national team.
The strength was she’s a forwards coach and I was a backs coach, so it worked out perfectly. Fiona was probably a nicer person than me. Back in those days, I was probably a bit more hard-nosed and… but I’ve mellowed in my old age. Although I'm told I'm still a bit blunt, but I'm not as nasty.
How have you changed as a coach from those early days to now?
I think the biggest lesson I learned is you need to plan. And then plan, and then plan and then plan and then plan a bit more. You cannot plan enough, right, because when things go wrong – and that’s another thing I’ve learned: things always go wrong – then you have a plan for it. You know, everybody can think on their feet, but you don't want things to go wrong and you go, ‘Well, what do I do now?’ And the players are all looking at you, expecting… ‘Well, what are we doing now??’ and you can’t be sitting there with no idea.
[So, you need to plan] everything! You start with your four-year plan, your year plan, your month plan, your six-month plan… and if we’re going into a tournament, I'll plan that we will probably get a yellow card, so we'd better do that at training, so they know what to do with a yellow card. Or we'll plan we’ll have a yellow card and an injury, so we're down to five, so what are we going to do then? Or we plan that we're going to miss the bus, or the bus breaks down and we're gonna be late. How are they going to cope mentally? So, you've always got a have contingencies in place, I think, so you look like you know what you're talking about, and you look like you know what you’re deciding. But even with all the planning, you've got to be really good at thinking on your feet, because sometimes you get thrown a curveball that you can’t even plan for.
I think also I’ve learned that you've got to roll with the punches. You can't lose your shit in front of the players. As coaches, you’ve got to know what level you're coaching at. So, if you're coaching at club, you can't really lose your shit, because you're in a club – these players have got a life, you're not paid for it. Coaching a club is different to coaching internationally, or even nationally; know what level you're coaching at. You’ve got to be in control, even if you're not in control, you’ve got to give a perception that you've got things under control. I think too, you've always got to be positive. My mantra is, ‘There's always something positive [that] will come out of anything that goes wrong, no matter what.’ So there's always positives, you’ve just got to find them, and sometimes you’ve got to search a little bit deeper to find them.
I think too, and I'm still learning it, is ‘oach the individual.’ It's not ‘coach the team’, because everybody's different. Everybody learns differently. Everybody's got a different backstory; you’ve got to try and understand, as much as you can, a player’s backstory, because that can contribute to how they train, they might have triggers… Know how they learn. I had an interesting player who is just a phenomenal athlete, but just trying to figure out how she learned was a real… because she’d keep on saying, ‘Yeah, I understand everything.’ Well, she didn't, because what she did on the pitch was totally opposed to if she understood it all. I was like, ‘Well, how does she learn?’ Because you’ve got players who are visual, some like numbers or things like that, or they like doing it, might be kinaesthetic. So you’ve got to try to and then use language, when you're describing things, that will… and this is the beauty about coaching a team as opposed to an individual. It's tough, because then you've got to try and use the kind of language that will encompass all learning types. And then when you put out stuff to the players to learn from, you've got to try and mix it up, too. So, it might be visual, but then you've got descriptors on it, and it might be not so much static visual, but it might be some plays cut. I found a player [who I coached] who was dyslexic, so she really liked it when I did the plays on Keynote and then animated them. So, you know, she's just like, ‘Oh my God, this is amazing!’ And then you’ve got to make it easy – you get that and you just Bluetooth drop it onto their phones. That’s another thing: keep up with what's happening, technically. You know technology's great and that can be a great tool. You’re always learning about trying to give… and players get bored, so you’ve got to mix things up. A lot.
Be observant - that was a really good lesson I learned from Scott Wisemantel [Australian rugby coach]. Because sometimes I get so caught up in what I'm trying to coach that I'm not looking at the players, to see if they're actually learning. You’ve got to actually keep trying to look them in the eye and see where they're at, if they’re even with you.
Having all of that in mind, do you have an overall coaching philosophy or a particular style for your coaching?
I try; I think it's still developing but, you know, try to be positive, make it enjoyable, try to always see the positives in things. It's about learning about the individual and getting a plan in place to help them actually be the player they can be. And I think in sport it's really important, and with the number of young kids we're working with now, it's helping them off the field, as well. It's not just about one aspect in their life, you’ve got to help the other aspects, as well. Because you don't want to use and abuse them… Elite sport is hard and not everybody gets to stay at the top, so you want them to be a better person when they roll out of your team or out of the high performance unit you're working in.
“...I think in sport it’s really important... it’s helping them off the field, as well. It’s not just about one aspect in their life, you’ve got to help the other aspects, as well. Elite sport is hard and not everybody gets to stay at the top, so you want them to be a better person when they roll out of your team...”
So then… and the following question I’m considering making a standard question for all of my guests, and I asked it of Neil Harvey, my first interviewee, so I’ll repeat the same wording here…
This is not intended to be a website that necessarily seeks to be supported by scientific literature, however there is a whole academic area that addresses high performance coaching. Cliff Mallet, an authority in the area and an Olympic coach, described high performance coaching as "a complex, social, and dynamic activity that is not easily represented as a set of tangible and predictable processes... And might be considered within a broader set of relations: the interdependence between a) the coaching tasks undertaken by coaches, b) coaches' relations with other people (e.g., athletes, other coaches, parents), and c) the coaching situation and context in which they operate." It's "fluid" and highly idiosyncratic", and coaches must "attempt to control as many variables as possible" yet "still... be responsive to a dynamic environment in which there is, at times, limited control" (Mallet, 2008). Cushion and his colleagues (2003) called it "structured improvisation".
What is high performance coaching to you?
It's a huge number of things. Obviously, it's talent ID [identification], and the ability to then take that talent and help the player develop their potential to be the best they can be, for me, on and off the pitch. So, sometimes it's not about just what they do playing, you’ve got to help them develop as well – because their young – off the pitch. You’ve got to leave them in a better place. And the hard thing with high performance sport is, in the end, it always comes down to performance. You probably live and die by your results, both as a coach and, to a certain extent, as a player or an athlete.
I remember one guy telling me that performance equals potential minus interference, and that interference can come in a number of guises. So, it's about lessening the interference, because I don't think you can ever get rid of it all, but it's reducing the interference so your player’s able to build on that potential.
And I think coaching is about juggling balls; high performance is juggling balls. You're not only juggling the player, you're juggling your management, you're juggling people above you. It's about the head [coach’s] vision and them [the management, the board] buying into [the head coach’s] vision and then working with synergy, because if you've got a sport that doesn't buy into what you're doing as the head coach, well you might as well say goodbye. So, it's about upward management, it's about downward management, it's about sideways management. I think it's juggling balls.
Okay. Can I just take you back, and it's something that Neil said as well, when you talk about looking after your athletes, on and off the field… For instance, perhaps your average Joe Blow wouldn't say that – and a particularly insensitive Joe Blow – wouldn't say that you really have any responsibility to look after the kind of person your athlete is becoming, especially off the field and after they leave you. Is it something that you just feel is your personal responsibility? And why? Does it really matter to you who they are as a person when they leave you?
But you've got to remember that in high performance sport, there's a lot more failures than there are successes. And that athlete is not always going to be playing sport, so, you're gonna be setting them up to fail if you don't help them off the pitch. I also think if they're happy off the pitch, and they're doing well there, they’re very good on the pitch. If they're not happy off the pitch, it doesn't matter how good they are, they won't be producing. You owe it to the athlete to help them, and then, as a by-product of that, that actually helps them on the pitch, as well. [You’ve got to take care of the athlete] because they're not playing all their life, they're not competing all their life. You've got to help them, especially if you've got players who are on really good money. You've got to help them manage the money, because they could be a train wreck after they've finished playing. If you use and abuse them, and they get results for you, and then when you go, ‘Okay, you're not good enough now,’ where does that put them? You've got to help them with what they're doing while they're a player, and then that helps them after they finish playing. I know the All Blacks go on about, you know, ‘Better men make better All Blacks.’ So, they kind of talk about that and they want them to be responsible off the pitch – I think it’s to mitigate some of the decisions boy's make. Luckily, girls are a little bit better than that, I think [because] the girls’ brains are fully developed [earlier].... So we're a little bit luckier. When I was talking about, you know, ‘Performance equals potential minus interference,’ a lot of that is personal, and if things aren't going right in a player’s day-to-day life, then they’re never going to reach their potential. You’re helping them and probably yourself, in a selfish way.
“But you’ve got to remember that in high performance sport, there’s a lot more failures than there are successes. And that athlete is not always going to be playing sport, so, you’re gonna be setting them up to fail if you don’t help them off the pitch. I also think if they’re happy off the pitch, and they’re doing well there, they’re very good on the pitch. If they’re not happy off the pitch, it doesn’t matter how good they are, they won’t be producing.”
Which is harder or has provided the most challenges – playing or coaching? What have been the differences/various challenges?
Definitely coaching’s way tougher, and if I'm gonna be honest, not as enjoyable as playing. I think when you're playing, you worry about yourself, you worry about your preparation and, you know, you want to work in with the team. As a coach, you worry about everything. And you’ve got to do all the planning in the background, worry about any scenarios, worry about the money, what we can actually afford to do. You've got to worry about all your athletes, you’ve got to worry about your management, and you've got to organize everything. So as a coach, you're pretty much working 24/7. Whereas as a player… you know I used to think sevens tournaments were fun. You played, then you’d rest, then you played and you’d rest. It was cool. As a coach, you play, then you organize, and you look at the next game and you strategize, and you sort out who’s going to play, and then you play the next game, so you're on your feet. I was more tired as a coach than as a player.
I was lucky in that I played, and I was able to play, at the top level consistently for a long time. Not until the very end of my career did I have any problems with selection/non-selection, ‘Oh my God, am I going to be selected?’ Because sometimes that’s a huge one that hits players – that’s a stress, it's a stress stressful time for them. Getting dropped is stressful. It's tough. Whereas I was very lucky in my career – I loved training, I loved, loved playing and the harder the game, the better. I enjoyed a really good contest – and it was only at the end when I got dropped. And I'd never come across being dropped, so I don't think I took it particularly well… to start with. But then… I got dropped in 2009 from the Black Ferns, and I was 44… so I should have retired, but then the World Cup was in 2010, and I was like, ‘Well I can retire, [but] you know what, I'm gonna try, because I owe it to everybody else who had been dropped all along the years for me to try and to make it. And if I don't, then at least I gave it a go. So, at least I can look myself in the eye and go, “I gave it a go.”’ So I spent the whole year pretty much not in the team, and I trained really hard.
Two weeks or a week-and-a-half before they left to go to the World Cup, they pulled me into the squad. And I said to myself, you know what, I'm gonna go away to this World Cup and I'm gonna love it. I didn't expect to play, and I was just gonna go, ‘and I’m going to soak up every minute. I'm going to talk to everybody I can, from any team and every team. And it’s just gonna be the best experience I've ever had.’ And it was really cool, I really enjoyed it. [I didn’t think I would] even make the starting 23. The coach, he rang me and he said, ‘I’m pulling you in. I’ll have a chat to you when we get into camp.’ I got into camp and he didn’t call me in for a chat. I was like, ‘Eh, okay, that’s fine, I’ll just be a training partner. They can use me as cannon fodder.’ And then we got over, and just before they announced the first team, he goes, ‘So, what's your goal here?’ And I said, ‘You know what? My goal is to do whatever you want me to do, train really hard, help everybody out. I'm going to be the best person, the best team person I can be. And if I make the field, then great, I’m going to play my heart out. And if I don’t, then great, I'm going to train like I’m in the starting 23, every time.’ Then he goes, ‘Okay, well you’re going to start the first game.’
Generally, at a World Cup, everybody’s ranked. Your first game’s usually against the lowest ranked team in your pool and so it’s generally the easiest [game]. So, what you find is the people who aren’t going to get much game time will either be on the bench or starting in that first game. And so that’s where I thought I was, and I was like, ‘Fine, Cool. I’ll roll with that. That’s awesome, at least I get some game time.’ We played the game, I really enjoyed it, and then the next game came up and I started that game. And then the third game, I was on the bench, and then I just started the semi-final and the final, and pretty much played every minute of the final. It was cool, and I just made sure that I soaked up everything. I enjoyed the whole experience. I think that was a good thing for me in that I knew it was going to be my last Cup, it was probably going to be my last time playing in the black jersey… and sometimes you don't realise that, because you get dumped, or you’re not selected. I was pretty lucky in that I got to really enjoy my last ever time in the in the black jersey.
Who are the coaches whom you admire, and what is it that they do that gains your admiration?
I've really admired Wayne Smith, just because of his rugby brain, just phenomenal. [A] really nice guy as well, just innovative [and a] very, very good rugby brain. [Wayne Smith is a New Zealand rugby coach who, for 16 years, was assistant coach for the All Blacks and who was also a player for the All Blacks.]
Sir Graham Henry [former head coach of Wales national rugby team and the All Blacks]. I admired him for the way he recovered from that 2007 World Cup where the All Blacks lost. You know, he was vilified by the country, and he recovered from that to then win the next World Cup. He was lucky, I think, at some stage, to actually retain his job. Him and Steve Hansen, and then they went on to win the 2011 World Cup. Steve Hansen [the next head coach of the All Blacks] went on to win the 2015 World Cup. And [they – Henry and Hansen] put in place pretty much ten years, eleven years of All Black dominance on the back of 2007, which was, people say, a really terrible year for the All Blacks.
Scotty Wisemantel [former rugby union and rugby league player and current assistant coach for the Wallabies, the Australian national rugby union team]. He’s kind of the same as Wayne Smith – he's just got such an amazing rugby brain, and just the way he thinks.
One other coach I really look up to is Noeline Taurua. She's coached a lot of netball in New Zealand and is the current coach of the Silver Ferns. She took a Silver Fern team that didn't even get a medal at the [Commonwealth] Games in 2018, and she took them from that brink to be World Champions a year or two later. Just how she galvanized the team and turned the whole thing around. She didn't really change the makeup of the team, and they went from pretty much nothing at the Comm Games, the worst they'd ever done, to world champions within a year or two years.
As we've said already, you commenced your international coaching career when you went to Hong Kong to coach the women’s sevens team. It seems to me that one of the biggest advantages to working as a coach or a member of the performance staff within an institute setting is that you get exposure to people who work across a whole range of sports. It provides an excellent opportunity to see what's done in other sports, to learn from others’ successes and mistakes, to share ideas, and also to have a wider network of support. Moreover, it feels to me like the Hong Kong Sports Institute, perhaps somewhat uniquely, often seems to attract expats working in high performance sport who are either at the beginning of their careers, or who already have developed solid and often successful careers in sport. Did you find this working at the Hong Kong Sports Institute? What did you find particularly advantageous working in such an environment at the beginning of your international coaching career?
I really enjoyed Hong Kong. I enjoyed the Institute, and like you say, the majority of the head coaches there were expat. What I had found good for me was, because I was learning so much, I was so green, it was good to talk to the other coaches and use them in a number of ways. I remember talking to Anthony [Giorgi, Head Coach of Athletics] a lot about just how he cycled his year, how he talent ID-ed, that sort of stuff. He used a lot of local clubs; how he integrated and used the local clubs and local coaches to further players through. So, there was a number of things I got from Anthony.
You get ideas about training, as well, like how you train. I used a number of the sports there to further my players. So, we used karate to get the girls more comfortable with contact, and [we] used their dojo [training hall]. We used the wushu training facilities, as well – that was indoors, a great mat. Just some of their movement patterns were interesting – I used to go in and have a look at some of their trainings, just to see what they did. Again, it's about getting different ideas, a different approach. Sometimes when you have players you're trying to wring that last little, tiny one percent out of them, you’ve got to try and think outside the box. I remember getting a stuntman in to do contact and falling and rolling, that sort of stuff. He was also a wrestler, as well. Wrestling is really good with rugby.
There was a dragon boating guy… we used it more in a team building environment… so we got the local dragon boat guy to take the girls and the boys out dragon boating over in Sai Kung. So that was getting them to work together better, because it's a team thing [and] it's all about timing.
I went into the tenpin bowling guys and just did a fun event. It was about getting more... because I found that in Hong Kong, the sports were insular, and they didn't really support any of the other sports. So, I thought it'd be a really good idea to actually introduce my players to another sport and to get them so they became mates and they’d support them. And then you've got a very Hong Kong feel, like, ‘I know those guys!’ And so we went and did tenpin bowling. Our girls were terrible, I don't know why Bill [Hoffman, Head Coach of Tenpin Bowling] let us in there [to] their wonderful... They had such a nice set up, and their beautiful lanes and they were all made to the different conditions of the major championships around the world. And, honest to God, my girls were bouncing the balls along. I was just like, ‘Oh no!!’ Just sometimes, you’ve got to get away from the rugby field to do stuff. It's got to be kind of fun, new, and I thought it was wonderful.
I was so lucky: I had wonderful Neil [Harvey, former swim coach for the HKSI Triathlon programme] did swimming with the girls – taught them swimming, because it was hard for me to take the girls for recovery sessions, because a lot of them couldn't swim, and they were scared of the water. Getting Neil in just to give them some swimming lessons was great.
What are your fondest memories? I guess you've told me a lot of the sorts of things you did, is there anything that really sticks out about being, even just for yourself, not for actually coaching, but being at Hong Kong at the Sports Institute?
I went over to Hong Kong and I knew nobody. I actually knew two people, but they both left within two or three months. And I was so used to knowing an awful lot of people, having a lot of friends, really good circles. So I got over there, and I suppose for the first six months, I was trying to figure out how I could make friends. I was so used to being part of a rugby club, because I'd been coaching club for 13 years, playing sport, and all of a sudden I was the national coach, so I couldn't be affiliated with a club. I couldn't play a sport because I was too busy and I was away at weekends, so I couldn't actually commit to a sport. And then I heard about this Brew Crew at the Institute, and I was trying to figure out how... and this Brew Crew was this bunch of boys, expat coaches who loved IPAs. Now, the only problem with that is I didn't like IPAs, at that stage. I really didn't like them at all, but I quite like alcohol and so I told them, and I kept on begging them, ‘Please, please can I be part of your crew? I love IPAs! (I hated IPAs.) I love IPAs, please!’ And they were quite stand-offish at the start, but then they let me in. By the time I left Hong Kong, I loved IPAs, and I was really fortunate enough to count some really amazing coaches – Patrick Kelly [former Head Coach of Triathlon], Neil, Bill, Foxy’s in there as well [Pat Fox, Scientific Conditioning Manager]… We’re still on our WhatsApp group, we still chat. I think that was one of the best things for me is I've got a cool bunch of what I call friends, but also guys who are very, very high in coaching around the world.
“I went over to Hong Kong and I knew nobody... I was so used to knowing an awful lot of people, having a lot of friends... I was so used to being part of a rugby club, because I’d been coaching club for 13 years, playing sport, and all of a sudden I was the national coach, so I couldn’t be affiliated with a club. I couldn’t play a sport because I was too busy and I was away at weekends, so I couldn’t actually commit to a sport.”
Coaching Teams
In team sports – with a whole bunch of individual physical abilities and physiological differences, different personalities and even varying mental states from day to day – what is it that you do to bring all of those characteristics together so that they can function, so that they can work together towards a common, and ultimately perform and/or be successful?
This is a great question and it’s something you're always working on. I suppose you've got to foster a team ethos, you know: ‘Team is bigger than the individual.’ But you need individuals – you can’t have everybody the same, because then it just doesn't work. It's good to have an outlier, it's good to have different people. You can't have all people who go, ‘Yes, yes, yes,’ and be robots, it just doesn't work. You've got to build an identity for your team. And then, that's got to resonate with the player. Once you get that, then you build a culture around that team identity, get a buy-in from the player, and then the players also need to feel valued as part of the team. They've got to have a voice; they've got to feel like they've got a voice. They don't necessarily have to voice it, but they must feel like they're valued enough so they can say whatever. And that’s tough sometimes, culturally. And the whole thing is, the team's got to be happy, and I think you get that with your camaraderie, you get that with them buying in to the team, buying into your culture, buying into what your vision is. You need a vision: what are we doing, why are we doing, how are we going to do it?
Do you have specific strategies that you use to make all this happen?
So, say when the FPC* season's coming up, you might have, like, ‘This is our vision for this year.’ This year [for us], it was about ‘Always Advancing.’ We said the last two years has been about being restoring the mana and then consolidating it, and now we need to advance. We want to win. We want to win the final game. So [our vision was] about being better incrementally each day as a player, and as an individual.
This year we had a camp [at the start]. It wasn't necessarily so much around a lot of rugby trainings – we did probably only one rugby training. It was just about getting the team together. We did it out on a naval base out on the Whangaparaoa Peninsula. It was about introducing some themes and ideas for the year, giving them a bit of information, splitting them up into mini teams ([which] we use during the season to do some fun games, some connectors). Then we introduced to them the theme of the year (‘Always Advance’), and why we had it, so it gives them a little bit of a vision. And then with ‘Always Advance,’ [we could] tag that theme into our game drivers and how we structure our team training. On our training jerseys we had ‘Always Advance’ printed on them. So, we have a theme that runs constantly through. We would want ‘Always Advance’ [during play] – attacking-wise, we always want to keep going forward, and defensively, we want lines to always go forward. Day-to-day, we want to train hard, so we want to be a little bit better each day. And then when [we] do our analysis, that's what [we] analyse, because that’s our common theme. So, the analysis says, ‘Look, this is what we got: so many meters this game,’ or ‘Defensively, we pushed them back this much,’ or ‘Kicking – we gained this many meters kicking, attacking.’ So then they [the players] get a buy-in [to the overall theme].
*FPC – Farah Palmer Cup, the national women’s rugby comp in NZ
Hypothetically speaking, would you rather a team who were especially good physically and physiologically, but not so great working together, or would you prefer a team who worked really very well together, but who were a little less physically capable (obviously sufficient to be able to be on a high performing rugby team)? Perhaps the question is, what's easier to work with, or which aspects do you think are easier to address?
A lot of people say, ‘A champion team will beat a team of champions.’ You still need x-factor, but you need a team that's happy and they work well together, especially in a team sport. There's a great African proverb that says, ‘If you want to go fast, go alone; If you want to go further, go together.’ I think that really hits it on the head. You need a team that works very well together; every team member doesn't necessarily have to be the best. Sometimes you pick a team and you may not necessarily take the best, because that person might be disruptive.
When you get to the very top, it's more team-based stuff, than physiology, because they've got a number of training years behind them. You’re always gonna have those outliers who you chuck in who need to be fitter. Or there be might players that, ‘Okay, to take your game to the next level, we’ve just got to keep working on your power, or your 10-metre speed.’ Physiologically, you need to be in a certain place to be a champion, but in the end, you need to work on that team, and how they’re gelling and their understanding. Clarity is so important in team sport. You’ve got to have clarity of what you're doing on the pitch, how you're doing it, clarity in your communication, clarity in your decision making, clarity in how you want to play the game.
“A lot of people say, ‘A champion team will beat a team of champions.’ You still need x-factor, but you need a team that’s happy and they work well together, especially in a team sport. There’s a great African proverb that says, ‘If you want to go fast, go alone; If you want to go further, go together.’ I think that really hits it on the head.”
In addition to different personalities and physical capabilities, players on your team will likely have different reasons for being there, as well as different levels of experience, different levels of game knowledge - how do you get them all on the one page?
It's good to have a good core group of people who've been there, done that, know what they're doing, and they tend to help your girls who have never been in certain situations. You need the young ones there to force the old ones to keep working hard, and they have this... just love of the game, they’re so excited, which the older players sometimes don't. You need to have that great mix of young and old, experienced, loud, quiet, worker, you know, music/I don't like music. You know how they talk about running a company, diversity is so good for your board of directors. Because if you have a group of old white males, a company that's got a diverse set-up, will go better than old, white males. It's the same in a team – it's good to have diversity, it's good to have different individuals. And it's just about then getting them so they buy into your team identity, your team vision and what you want to do.
Aside from gaining buy-in to the team vision and identity, how do you empower your players
You're always upskilling them, and it’s about giving them confidence, not only in their skills, but in their decision-making, [too]. We do a lot of stuff on leadership. We do stuff on communication, the language you use. We do stuff on understanding people, observing people, understanding how differently people learn stuff. And then it's just about them having the confidence to then talk. You get players who [are] natural leaders and then you've got people who aren't quite that natural, but they grow into it. So [we] facilitate that growth and upskill them.
A team building day for the Auckland Storm women’s rugby team for which Anna is an assistant coach. (Photo courtesy of Anna Richards)
Women in Rugby & Female Athletes
You had the privilege of playing during the amateur days to the early days of professional rugby for women – what changes did you see? Aside from the implementation of contracts that we’ve already spoken of, how do your experiences compare to the current situation for female players?
It's totally different. When I first started playing for New Zealand, I think the first weekend that we actually got paid, we were paid $5 a day. I got 15 bucks for my first paycheque. You know, we were just happy that they paid for our flights; we were so used to paying for everything. Through the rest of my career as a player, it didn't really change in that we were contracted while we were in camp, and then we were paid a daily allowance, so it wasn't really a contract. And it changed from having a couple of coaches and one physio, to then travelling with doctors, physios, analysis guys, media people. So, it changed quite a bit over the years until I finished in 2010. The first time the girls were actually contracted, over a [whole] year, was at the end of 2017. That's the fifteens, the sevens girls were contracted a bit earlier than that. I would hope that the fifteens will now become fully contracted, so full-time professionals, rather than just semi-professional. And just the support they get nutritionally, [with] mental skills, personally, personal development, all that, it just keeps getting bigger and better, bigger and better.
I've noticed in a couple of interviews that you've done in the past that you've said that now is about giving back to a sport that gave you so much. But when you talk about those early days of playing and you got your $5 a day for your first time away and that kind of thing, one might actually argue that that's not ‘giving you so much,’ especially if you were to compare the compensation or reward given to females and that given to males. What is it that makes you feel that you've got to give back? Or, what other benefits did you get in that time that you are repaying now?
But you're only looking at it from a money aspect. I never played sport for money. I never played rugby for money, I played it because I loved it, because I enjoyed it, because it gave me lots of good friends, and it enabled me to travel – I love traveling. It gave me a sense of purpose. It made me a world champion – not many people can say they’re world champions. It gave me lifelong friends. I would never have stayed playing it for 20 years if I didn't like it and it didn't give me stuff that I love. I think money is a side issue; money was never what I played it for.
What does coaching give you now?
I suppose when I was playing, there wasn't that many people who wanted to coach women's rugby, that wanted to help us out. And so I felt that... and it gives me, again, a sense of purpose, it allows me to continue to be involved in rugby, allows me to... it used to allow me to travel. I still make friends – I made some great friends in Hong Kong, through the other coaches, etc. So, it's still just different aspects, and actually, it finally gave me money!
Have you have you worked with men before, as in male players/male rugby?
No, not much at all. I've helped on the odd occasion, but I haven't really been involved in coaching boys much at all. I remember being in Melbourne and going down and helping out coaching the gay men’s rugby side that was going to the World Cup. I do a little bit with Auckland because the two academies do training together. I like the girls training with the guys doing skill stuff, because it forces them to be a bit better, so I help out a bit there when we're doing skill stuff.
Are there advantages or even aspects, from what you have seen, that are more desirable when you coach female compared to male players?
I suppose. And I've talked to guys who, when they talk about coaching boys and girls, say that they like coaching girls because the girls don't act like they know it all. They're always like a sponge, whereas some of the boys go, ‘You don't need to tell me!’ And you tell them [girls] once and they remember, they learn very quickly, they’re very, very eager to learn. The difference is that, you know, boys can be a little more tough with each other, the girls aren't so good at being tough with each other. And the boys don't hold grudges; women are like elephants, they remember, a slight for 100 years. If there’s ever a disagreement, that's a tough one. Whereas the boys you know they can smack each other, like full-on fist fight at training, and then half an hour later they're best mates. So there’s differences.
Over the past five to ten years, there's been a growing interest in women's high performance sport, particularly in training women in accordance with their cycling hormonal profiles, being more aware of the way that their bodies respond to different training stimuli, as well as the effects of altered mood states. Is this something you've always been conscious of, throughout your playing career, as well as in your coaching career? And have you then altered the way that you coached and the training that you’ve prescribed according to this unique feature of women?
Well honestly, as a player, it was just something you dealt with. I didn't really have a lot of knowledge, we weren't educated at all about it. It was just, you didn't talk about. Whereas now I think, since I got back to New Zealand, it's something that's been brought to our attention more often; there’s been education in place. I don't think we do it well enough with our players. I think what we need to do is educate them better into what is involved in your menstrual cycle, how it impacts on you, how it impacts on your training. And I work with a lot of Pacific Island players, and it's just sometimes... you just don't talk about it. I think it's really important.
I think what we're trying to do is educate the players so they understand what's happening with their bodies, and understand it's not a bad thing. They need to understand where they are in their cycle and how that impacts on them - how they feel, how they train, and what can help them in certain parts [of their cycle] to feel better, like [when] hydration is [particularly] important. And it's about them being comfortable in understanding.
We had a really good S&C trainer [who would say], ‘This is our training. If it's that time in your period where you're not really good at high intensity, we’ll just reduce what you're doing in this part of the training.’ Or, ‘If it's part of [your cycle] where you can't really do endurance [so well], we'll just change it a little bit.’ I think it's more about just educating [the players] so they understand, and them being confident enough to talk to the trainers about where they are and how they’re feeling.
For me, [what is especially important is] when they stop having a period, that’s not good, and you also get iron deficiency in some athletes. I once had a player who was really struggling, she was like, ‘I've got no energy, blah, blah, blah.’ We sent her to the doctors: low in iron. And then I’ve had another athlete who had a period of really intense competition and she's also quite a big trainer, and then she stopped having a period. Luckily enough, she was confident to tell the nutritionist. And so, we were just like, ‘Okay, well we need to step back from training a little bit, make sure you recover really well, and if this continues for too much longer, then we're gonna have to send you to the doctor.’ It's about looking after the players, you can't have them not having their periods, it’s not good at all.
“ I think what we need to do is educate them better into what is involved in your menstrual cycle, how it impacts on you, how it impacts on your training... educate the players so they understand what’s happening with their bodies, and understand it’s not a bad thing. They need to understand where they are in their cycle and how that impacts on them - how they feel, how they train, and what can help them in certain parts [of their cycle] to feel better... ”
You mentioned that with some women, particularly with women from certain cultures, it may be considered almost taboo to talk about periods and the menstrual cycle; are there ways that you can get around discussing it with them? Or, if they come into an elite sport situation do they think, ‘Oh well, okay, I can talk about it in this setting, it's part of my job?’
Well, like I said, it's about educating and normalizing the conversation, because if it's a conversation they don't generally have, then they're not going to feel comfortable. So, [we get] them on an app so they actually understand where they're at in the whole thing; educating them as to why it’s important and they understand what they're doing, educating them that it's normal to talk about it and it's important they discuss what's happening with their bodies in advance so we can help them – we can change their trainings, or if they’ve stopped having their period, then we can send them to a doctor to help them out. And I think they need to realize that having your period is important, and it's actually really, really good for you
I got a lady in this year who makes period pants, as an education block for the girls, and she was really interesting how... she was a Māori woman. And she was like, ‘This is your superpower. This is your superpower, this is amazing. When I am having my period. This is time for internal reflection and reset…’ And she made it really cool and the girls were really interested when she came to us and was discussing it all. It was great.
I can’t remember which coach I was talking to, but he was coaching a Chinese sevens team, and he was [telling me that] in their culture, when their period starts, they’re gone for two days. He said, ‘I’ll turn up to training and there might be five [players] gone because they’ve synced.’ [And I’ve found, with some cultures] you cannot get in the pool [for cross-training or recovery]. If they don't use tampons, they need pads, [then] they will definitely not get in the pool. And then, culturally, they may use tampons, but you don't go near water if you have [your period]. So, [as the coach] you've got to understand culturally and understand physiologically.
Traditionally, and especially in sport, a woman’s period and her menstrual cycle are often considered a nuisance, it's a disadvantage, it's, you know, ‘Well, we don't want to deal with girls because we’ve got to work around this and the moodiness and all that sort of stuff…’ Do you think the different physical, emotional and psychological responses of the girls in response to their fluctuating hormone profiles can be considered a strength in coaching and training, instead? Or is it just one more thing to think about?
I always say knowledge gives you power. All right? And it doesn't really matter what that knowledge is, it gives you power to understand things, how to make decisions, how to react to certain different circumstances. So I think it's really important to normalise it and educate the players, so they understand, so then we can adjust their training so that will be good for them, adjust their eating so it'll be better for them, adjust their hydration so it'll be better for them. I think at a certain stage… perhaps when they’re ovulating, their heat goes up so you actually need more water during that period, because you're quicker to dehydrate. And then, you think about it, if they’re playing a tournament, where you're playing in 33 degrees or whatever, and then you're ovulating as well, then you're more at risk to get dehydrated, more at risk for soft tissue injury. So that sort of stuff. So there's a huge upside to education and to knowledge.
Cultural Diversity when Coaching
We’ve spoken a little bit about it already, but more generally, what's it like coaching players from diverse backgrounds, particularly different cultural backgrounds? How do you compare coaching in New Zealand, where rugby appears almost as if it’s part of the national identity, with coaching in a place like Hong Kong, where rugby feels more like it's related to the expat identity than the Cantonese cultural identity, yet you still have local players on your team who bring this identity with them?
Hong Kong parents are all about education. So, education comes first in Hong Kong, and you'll notice in a lot of schools there, there’s very little recreational grounds, because they cost too much. Most of... especially most of the local schools, if they’re lucky, will have half a basketball court on the top of a building. A lot of the local schools do not equate to rugby; definitely it’s your expat schools, your English learning schools who have rugby played at them. I know the Hong Kong Rugby Union was all about trying to get more locals playing, because you need locals with [Hong Kong] passports to play sevens to go to the Olympics. I had players [whose] parents were born in Hong Kong, but they still retained the British passport, and to have a Hong Kong passport, [they] had to give the British passport up, or their American passport up, and you don't want to do that. It's a dilemma. A dilemma.
I was lucky in that the culture of Hong Kong is that they’re very hard working. They listen. They like learning. They'll work incredibly hard. They don't like asking questions, because they think it shows that they weren't listening to you and it shows disrespect. So, it was about getting them to be comfortable in asking questions, and just saying, ‘Well, why are we doing that?’ They weren’t very good at saying, ‘Why are we doing this?’ They were good at saying, ‘Yes. Okay I will do this.’ Just trying to learn about their family background as well, to understand, and I was okay with some, some I wasn't okay with. I've got better at that, you know.
In New Zealand, there’s a lot of difference between cultures: Pacific Island culture, Māori culture, Caucasian. You've got to understand your player and where they’re sitting. You’ll have a player who might be the oldest girl in a Tongan household. Well, you know straight away when you’ve learned that, that everything goes back to her if anything needs to be done. If she needs to go pick the kids up or the parents can't... When you've got Pacific Island families, a lot of the time the parents do shift work. And so, she's in charge of cooking, she's in charge of cleaning, she's in charge of picking up the grandparents. She is the go-to person. The girls do everything, and that’s expected of them. So, you've got to understand there’ll be times where they can't come to training. It's not because they don't want to, it's just... or they might be late, and it's not because they don't want to, it's because, at the last minute, they were told to go pick up the grandmother.
Economically, it's tough too. You've got parents who are on shift work. You'll have a number of family members living in the same household – it's not just mum, dad and the kids; it’s mum, dad and the grandparents and maybe other extended family members. So, I [coached] a girl, she's a Pacific Islander, and do you think I could communicate with her? Because she wasn't allowed a phone, and she could only get her hands on a phone when everybody else was asleep at night. So, just trying to figure out how to actually get information to her about what was happening was [challenging]. …And she was just like, ‘I'm running late,’ and it’s because there’s only one car in the family, and she had to wait for the car to get home from a parent who’s been at work, so she could take it to training. You know, it’s tough.
What about when we talk about sport being a part of who you are because you’ve grown up with it, grown up watching it and it’s part of your identity; you've got that love for it and you understand the history of the game. Then compare that with players you might have coached, for example when you're here, who might find that they get a chance to play rugby at school, or they’re selected through a talent identification process, or whatever, and they come into it later, but it's not necessarily, you know, their sport, their cultural identity, their history; do you have to foster a love for rugby in them, or can they just play on and they’re still valuable team members?
When I was in Hong Kong and they were all playing rugby, they had a huge love for it, because it was so difficult to play rugby in Hong Kong. It was so against… most parents didn't like them playing it. You know, and their parents and grandparents worried, ‘Oh, you're going to get too dark, your skin is going to tan – you cannot play rugby.’ There were just so many societal factors. So, if they came to me playing rugby, it was because they loved it.
I suppose, too, that, I think, you know, people will go, ‘Well, why are you guys always so good at playing in New Zealand?’ And yeah, it's because we grew up watching the game - watching the game gives you an innate knowledge of how it’s played. But we're also, and I'm sure it was the case for you in Australia, we’re brought up with the mentality of ball sports. As a kid, you know, one of the first presents you’ll get is a ball – that’s a staple present as you're growing up. You're expected to go outside and play with everybody in the street, or play with your cousins, throw the ball around. Touch, tag, netball – [games] you had to play at school, and that just [teach] that ball control. Netball - you had to play it. Everybody's expected to play a sport.
(Photo courtesy of Anna Richards)
Playing with Honour
Finally, this is something I have wondered about and find very interesting: you received a Member of New Zealand Order of Merit (MNZM) in 2005 while you were still playing rugby. Did you feel a sense of duty that came with your honour, or responsibility?
I think I was the first women's rugby player to receive it, for playing women's rugby. And I felt that I needed to say yes to receiving it (because you can turn it down). I felt I needed to accept it, even though it's a team sport, because it was an acknowledgement of women's rugby and what we had done. It's good for our sport – it’s good to be recognized in the public eye. We never get media, and to get the government acknowledging the team… because it is an acknowledgement of the team, even though it's for the individual. I think it’s really important.
And I was really proud. My mum and dad were hugely proud. I thought, you know, I needed to accept it for them, as well, because my family were hugely supportive of me during my career. So yeah, it was very cool.
I guess then you feel like you're an ambassador for your sport? And you're doing something that's got a wider purpose than just rugby, but it's for your whole country?
Yeah, you're always an ambassador, especially when you're playing for your country. The media is very quick to jump on you if you're not a great ambassador. And when you're in a minority sport where you're really struggling to be seen, to be heard, to be supported, you have to be the best ambassador you can be. And that continues your whole life, because you'll always be an ex-Black Fern. Now I'm a coach, you know, I'm an ex-Hong Kong coach, you know, you're always in the spotlight, even when you don't think you are, people will hold you to... you know, you are.
Do you like it? Or do you feel too much pressure and responsibility sometimes, like you can't make a mistake?
Pretty sure I'd make quite a few mistakes. I think as a player, I was happy that there was no social media back in my day and no phones with cameras.
I remember the 1998 World Cup, which was the first sanctioned IRB [International Rugby Board, now World Rugby] Cup. And we were there, and we hadn't really got much [media] coverage going there. Just the usual 30-second item on the news, or a little paragraph in the paper saying we're going to the World Cup. Anyway, we got over there and Steven Jones, who’s an eminent rugby writer, he’s British, and he usually hates the All Blacks, hates New Zealand with a passion. He wrote a piece on us that was very, hugely glowing. He couldn't say enough good things about us, just how we were ambassadors... and we had no idea he was watching us at the time. He was watching what we did on and off the pitch. And then he wrote this wonderful article basically promoting us, and then all of a sudden, the newspapers in New Zealand picked it up, ran with it... Back in those days there was a fax machine right, at our hotel. And at our hotel, we'd have a team meeting every morning, and every morning there'd be like one fax, and that would be from Tammi Wilson's mother who was the only person who had a fax machine. That was like, ‘I hope you're going well, good luck,’ or whatever. And then all of a sudden, this guy wrote this article, and it was picked up, and we started getting hundreds of faxes a day, a thousand. And it broke the fax machine at the hotel, and we couldn't... we were like, ‘What the hell's happening?’ Then we had schoolkids sending us faxes and all this stuff. There was just this massive movement during that World Cup, which forced TV One to broadcast the final live – and it was never going to happen [in the first place], purely on the back of an article written by a guy, who hates New Zealand, on how we were great ambassadors.
Why did he do it, do you think? Was he just impressed…?
Yeah, I think he was impressed with how we played. He was impressed with how we conducted ourselves off the pitch. I don't know why. When you do something wrong, it always makes... it’s always known. And I think too, you've got to have certain standards, you’ve got to be proud of your country. You’ve got to be proud of what you do. You’re there actually promoting your country, and your family (which is more important than your country, it’s your mum and dad!).
“...you’ve got to have certain standards, you’ve got to be proud of your country. You’ve got to be proud of what you do. You’re there actually promoting your country, and your family... your mum and dad!”
You’re an absolute legend, Anna. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I have really enjoyed our chat.
